Definitions of Exclusion

[drcpunk]

GAFilk's secret guest this year, Emma Bull, collects found filk. I believe this can be defined as "filk that does not come from the filking community". This includes stuff like the songs from the musical episode of Buffy, some of Jonathan Coulton's songs, modern cowboy songs... quite a lot of material. And, since Emma asked us to send found filk her way, I asked for a definition of "Not-Filk".

She said that this was an interesting question.

mnemex defined it as "mimetic". He said that "Title of the Song" is found filk, but the songs it spoofs are Not-Filk.

Emma noted that Stan Roger's "White Collar Holler" is found filk. Logically, most of his songs should be Not-Filk, such as the wonderful "45 Years From Now", one of my favorite love songs, but we sing it at filks, so it is filk.

Musicals fall into an interesting slot. I think the songs from The King and I are Not-Filk. I think. osewalrus, mnemex, and I sang "Sit Down, You're Rocking the Boat" as the dead dog filk wrapped. Does that make it filk? What about the songs from Rocky Horror, Sweeney Todd, and Urinetown?

And, what about the songs from Grease? At first glance, these look like Not-Filk. But, as those who've seen the stage play and those with a really quick ear who've seen the movie know, there are at least two songs one could make an argument for being found filk. One of these is the school anthem for Rydell High School. The other is the parody of this anthem that the kids sing in the halls of that venerable institution.

Categories may well be fictions, but they are often useful fictions. However, they are more useful when they are exclusive. The problem I've had with the term "interstitial" is that I cannot figure out what is not interstitial. I want to send Emma cool found filk, but this is much harder if I don't know what not to send her.

Comments

[jl8e]

Is there even a definition of filk?

[drcpunk.livejournal.com]

Several. It tends to boil down to "what we sing at a filksing", which is not always useful.

[avram]

Well, I think you were on the right track in your second sentence: "filk that does not come from the filking community." Except for that being circular.

Still, start by establishing the filking community. Filk is what the community produces; "found filk" is material from outside the community that's similar in some way to that produced within it.

What I find interesting is the thought of any song parody (like the example you give from Grease) as filk. In other words, the thought of taking a sing and slapping new lyrics on it, that somehow makes it fannish, to the point that you want to stick a fannish word like "filk" on it.

This reminds me a bit of arguments I've seen over fan fiction, where some person will ask why fan writers don't just come up with their own characters and settings. (Leaving aside that some of them do.)

In both cases, you have people drawing lines between a fannish and a non-fannish activity, and acting as if the fannish activity is unusual or distinctive in some way, to the point of needing its own descriptive term. But in both cases, the so-called fannish activity is actually the original activity, as practiced by cultures worldwide for thousands of years. (Our own national anthem!) It's only in recent centuries, since the advent of copyright law, that making it all up yourself has come to be the default mode of creative expression.

[drcpunk.livejournal.com]

Sure. But my definition isn't actually the one I'm interested in here. I want to know what Emma considers Not-Filk, as she's the one asking for Found Filk. Her point was that there is no such thing as a mundane, that everyone is a member of some sort of fandom, and that this is really neat. And I don't dispute any of it -- but if she's asking for Found Filk, I need to know what is and isn't.

Is parody inherently fannish? Well, that depends on what you consider fannish, I guess. I'm not sticking the label "filk" on the song from Grease, though -- I'm asking if the filk community would consider it Found Filk or Not-Filk. Or, I'm asking "Is it wasting Emma's time to send this to her? Is it what she's looking for?"

Do most filkers consider Weird Al to be found filk? I got the impression they did. And where do we fit Tom Lehrer in?

Emma also noted that songs about science tend to fall within the filk / found filk sets.

[sammywol.livejournal.com]

I have no authority to lay down any limits to filk but am puzzled as to how the Buffy musical songs are filk? Are they direct parodies of songs I don't know? Are songs with original music and lyrics filk. Although if the Rocky Horror is in then Buffy has to be as well as much the same thing is going on there.

[tibicina.livejournal.com]

Well, songs about TV shows/movies tend to count as filk. Particularly about sci-fi/fantasy/horror TV shows/movies. I suppose really it's just that if there's enough of the fannish community that likes it, then it sort of counts. Filk is not so much specifically parody as it is fannish music.

Then again, I will cheerfully sing songs from a variety of musicals and light operas at filksings, though most of them will have at least some relation to fairytales or science fiction or fantasy or horror or something.

But really, if we're including science fiction/fantasy/horror music, which I think we ought to be, then yes, both Buffy and Rocky Horror Picture Show would be in. On the other hand, in this particular instance, those also might be too obvious.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

I tend to define "filk" as "the music of the sf/fannish and related communities"; specifically, music created BY members of the community. "Found filk" is music that's on topic for the community (here I tend toward narrower definitions; "Come Sail Away" is found filk because it speaks of a starship, while cat songs, for example, are generally not). Parodies or songs "to the tune of" other songs are the same form as much filk; if the topics are more or less congruent, and especially if they're humorous (as so much of filk is), they might be considered found filk. "Found filk" is so labelable regardless of its creator's express desires; hence, Weird Al is in fact found filk, and he is not a filker.

"Found filk" is not, in my mind, eligible for a Pegasus nomination unless the creator is filk-friendly and -aware, even if not hirself a filker. Even then, it would take an extraordinary song for me to nominate it.

The material from musicals isn't filk, per se (except under a wider definition of filk, "that which is sung at filksings"; rather, it's music filkers like enough to sing.

I hope this helps you sort things, somewhat.

[mneme]

As Avram mentions above, there's no real relationship between filk and parody (or tune/word reuse, which isn't necessarily parody) except that filkers are frequently also parodists (but many are not).

Filk as a transitive verb does tend to mean something akin to parody -- "a filk of" is a parody or other reuse, and "to filk" a song or poem involves mutating it in some way. But filk as an adjective or noun isn't necessarily parody. The Star Spangled Banner and Weird Al aren't -really- -filk-, whereas original songs by known filkers (too many to list), are.

Which makes fantasy and sf songs from outside the filk community "found filk."

[jl8e]

Does musical genre matter?

Have artists like Blue Oyster Cult, Iron Maiden, and Dio produced found filk, or are they too far removed stylisticly?

[mneme]

Not really. We have people working in classic-ish rock, jazz, folk, a capella harmonies, and there's even a hard rock filk band -- Toy Boat.

So yes, Blue Oyster Cult, Iron Maiden, and Dio have likely produced found filk -- though in some cases, the music probably isn't -accessble- enough to actually work as found filk (as in, in addition to the geekish/sf/fantasy bent, filk tends to have accessible lyrics, and to tell a story or be funny. Though it's hard to tell what works, bereft of context.

[jl8e]

I don't get what you mean by "accessible".

[mneme]

I didn't express it very clearly. It wasn't that accessible.

Mostly, I mean that words need to be audible and comprehensible. This is actually true for most (but not all) music. (mind, I've seen one exception; Toy Boat's rendition of a certain popular filk song -- but there, the audience was expected to already know the words).

[jl8e]

I don't think that's a problem with any of the bands in question. (I know I used to (and probably still do) have all the lyrics to Iron Maiden's album Seventh Son of a Seventh Son memorized, and I'm pretty sure it was from listening, rather than reading the inlay card.)

Mumbling as a singing style belongs more to grunge/alternative than it does hard rock/heavy metal. :)

[mneme]

Fair enough.

[avram]

Another issue: Can you plausibly adapt the song to typical filk circle performance conditions without losing most of what made it cool? In other words, can it be sung solo, a capella? Or maybe by two people, with just a guitar, or one or two other simple instruments? Will it work if accompanied on a doumbek, or does it need a full drum kit?

[avram]

Or, to put it another way, I'm pretty sure I've never heard anyone perform Led Zeppelin's "Ramble On" or "The Battle of Evermore", or Blue Öyster Cult's "Black Blade", at a filk circle. I have heard redaxe perform Dire Strait's "Brothers in Arms" (which he sees as evocative of the Dorsai stories). I'm pretty sure "Brothers in Arms" is just a much less musically demanding song than the other three.

[drcpunk.livejournal.com]

I would agree that "found filk" is not eligible for a Pegasus.

I think Emma would disagree with you about cat songs. I'm basing this on her considering songs that people are writing now about cowboys to be found filk. The one she sang was about one of the last cowboys, who mourned that only he and the coyotes were left of the old west. At the end of the song, he disappears and there's a new coyote.

My problem is that at this point, Emma's definition of found filk is pretty broad, so I don't know what not to include.

[drcpunk.livejournal.com]

This is less of an issue than it used to be, at least at the bigger filk conventions. NEcons, especially in the NYC / NJ area, tend to be smaller than, say, OVFF, and generally don't have the variety of instruments we saw at this year's GAFilk. When one guy is indeed using a drum kit, a woman's on a flute, another's playing her viola, Josh pulls out his harp, and Sally works magic with her cymbals -- well, it's at a filk circle. It's done by filkers. It's filk.

[jl8e]

Quite possibly. ("Battle of Evermore" doesn't have any prominent instrumentation beyond guitar.)

I'd guess that, of the bands I mentioned, a lot of Dio (it's very much the singer's band), some BOC, and very little Maiden could be adapted, but I'm neither a musician nor familiar with filk.

But does that make them not 'found filk', or just found filk that's not likely to be performed in a filk context? In other words, if Josh were to adapt BOC's 'Godzilla' for harp, and play it in a filk circle, would it now be found filk where it wasn't before?

[ladymondegreen.livejournal.com]

For a broad definition, if upon hearing the song you think "I would like to learn song so I can sing it at a filk sing/con" but you don't think that the original artist would be interested in attending said gathering with you, you can probably safely term it 'found filk'.

I have a list for Emma, but I didn't know it was for her until you posted this. :)

[drcpunk.livejournal.com]

Grin!

[avram]

"Evermore"'s vocals are a bit demanding.

Yeah, I think part of the "found-filk" experience might be the act of sharing it with other filkers. Maybe.

[jonbaker.livejournal.com]

I wonder if this also requires a humorous twist. I've found various sites with science or other academic-subject songs, some of which seem to be straight teaching/mnemonic, some of which have a humorous tinge. The first would seem not to fit, the latter would - which leaves us with Lehrer's The Elements - is it a mnemonic, or is it humorous because of the last two lines?

One site I've occasionally used for "found filk" at filksings: philosophy songs (http://www.manitowoc.uwc.edu/staff/awhite/phisong.htm).

I note that they have mp3s without, apparently, worrying about licensing, in this post 2-Live-Crew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell_v._Acuff-Rose_Music,_Inc.) world.

[jonbaker.livejournal.com]

I certainly heard the Buffy The Musical stuff over and over at filksings for perhaps a year after the episode aired. Unparodied. And then there is the Firefly theme song, and the Coulton Portal theme song, which are currently popular. Or is the Firefly theme song that I hear at filksings an extension of the original, which seems only to be the chorus of the long song I've been hearing?

[tibicina.livejournal.com]

The original Firefly theme is just the chorus. The longer song is 'Mal's Song' with the additional material and words by Michelle Dockery. (Officially on the album it's on, I believe it's listed as a medley of her song and the firefly theme for copyright purposes.)

[tibicina.livejournal.com]

Well, but that brings up the question - is it the cowboy part of the song which makes it found filk or is it the implied transformation/magic of that last sentence which makes it found filk. I mean magic does fall under the fantasy subgenre of filk.

[drcpunk.livejournal.com]

And, Emma classifies "Home on the Range" as found filk, at least partly because of this verse:

How often at night when the heavens are bright
With the light of the glittering stars,
Have I stood here amazed and asked as I gazed
If their glory exceeds that of ours.

[drcpunk.livejournal.com]

Oh, she's also collecting songs about serial killers.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Hm. Certainly "Home on Lagrange" qualifies fully as filk (and has that fallen out of common knowledge? Shameful, if so!); I wouldn't classify the source that way, based on those lyrics. The content there is neither sf nor f, but religion, or sensawunder.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Slight correction: "Brothers In Arms" is found filk relating to the Darkover universe (in the Ages of Chaos, specifically).

If I were going to do Soft White UnderbellyBlue Oyster Cult's music at a filk circle, I strongly suspect it'd be the easier choice, "Godzilla", which is very clearly found filk.

[drcpunk.livejournal.com]

I know "Home on Lagrange", but don't know how widely it's still known. I think Emma would call the source found filk for two reasons, the sensawunder and the idea that the author is in his own type of subculture. But, don't assume I'm right without reality checking with her.

Regardless, given that she did classify it as found filk, I did a mental blink and asked what Not-Filk was.